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pyramid
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwvg View Post
There's a fundamental misunderstanding, in general it seems, on how war spending works. People seem to think that the money spent is going into some black hole never to be seen again.
The reality for most Americans is that money might as well have gone into a black hole somewhere because they are never going to see it again or benefit from the spending of it. Also, they and their children will be expected to pay back the loans and interest on the loans for all the borrowed money that didn't benefit them either.

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Originally Posted by gwvg View Post
Social programs are often unnecessary. National security isn't.

lol, thank bush/congress for protecting us from WMDs that didn't exist in a nation that didn't attack us instead of getting us fully funded education programs and national health care to protect us from the health and education problems we do actually have...

"National security" programs are often far more unnecessary than social programs. More Americans would die if we got rid of SS and Welfare than if we got rid of Star Wars and a bunch of other weapons systems designed to protect us from the people who aren't attacking us.

Also, military personnel get paid shit. Most of that money is going to contractors with no bid and cost plus contracts. We have as many contractors in Iraq as we do troops and the contractors make far more money than our troops. Yay privatization, is there nothing you can't efficientize for us?

[another debate]Also national health care is far more efficient than private sector health care. The USA spends more on health care than any other nation on earth, including the entire combined EU which has a population nearly double that of ours.[/another debate]

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Originally Posted by gwvg View Post
we'll have created a massive lawless vacuum for every single terrorist organization in the middle east that wants free reign to organize and indoctrinate a disaffected population, accumulate cash, and develop operational capability to attack to U.S.
lol, is that what the definition of national security is now? Money well spent then...

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Originally Posted by gwvg View Post
Corporate handouts? You mean NOT taking money from corporations that would otherwise be efficiently invested in expanding growth and lead to increased competition? Yeah, that's a bit more efficient, and useful toward long term growth than feeding the consumption loop of low cost goods and depressing economic welfare among the poor.
No, corporate handouts like the tens of billions of dollars we funnel to all those companies who are "too big to fail". You know, those companies which are all about rugged individualism and low taxes when the money is rolling in but which aren't above soaking up taxpayer dollars to keep the party going when times aren't so good. Socialism for you is bad, socialism for them is good. Good old American social-fascism. Where feeding the poor and making sure old people aren't starving to death in the streets are supposedly bad investments but bailing out multibillion dollar corporations is perfectly acceptable.
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Last edited by pyramid; 07-23-2008 at 04:02 PM..
Old 07-23-2008, 03:52 PM pyramid is offline  
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How about when the money that funded the war didn't come from our taxes? We borrowed all that money from China and Japan. By "borrowing" money from China the government was able to get us into war much easier. We would never have gone into Iraq if taxes were raised to pay for it.
Old 07-23-2008, 03:54 PM BigFuzzyArchon is offline  
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gwvg
 
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Originally Posted by pyramid View Post
The reality for most Americans is that money might as well have gone into a black hole somewhere because they are never going to see it again or benefit from the spending of it.
Thank you for acting as the perfect example of the economic ignorance I'm talking about in the first place. The money spent on Iraq goes to defense contractors and military personnel, in turn they pay their employees and their employees buy consumer goods. It works the same way that any government spending program works. The exact same argument you just made, that most Americans wouldn't see the money, is justification for eliminating welfare, health care spending, and virtually every government spending program that targets one group over another. Pretty pathetic argument if you ask me.


Quote:
Also, they and their children will be expected to pay back the loans and interest on the loans for all the borrowed money that didn't benefit them either.
Ahhh, more economic stupidity here. Our children won't be asked to pay back any loans; that's a complete misunderstanding. Our children will be asked to pay off the interest on a vastly devalued debt due to yearly inflation. Regardless of that economic misunderstanding, when you consider the actual debt effect, you'd realize how completely stupid that argument really is in regard to a pull out. Obama isn't going to use the 100 billion saved starting 2 years from now for deficit reduction; he's just going to spend it; the same exact current effect on the economy that the spending on Iraq is causing now. Basically, its a logical fallacy.


Quote:
lol, thank bush/congress for protecting us from WMDs that didn't exist in a nation that didn't attack us instead of getting us fully funded education programs and national health care to protect us from the health and education problems we do actually have...
No, going into Iraq in the first place was a bad idea. Leaving now has nothing to do with WMDs, but instead the operational capability of terrorist organizations.

Quote:
"National security" programs are often far more unnecessary than social programs. More Americans would die if we got rid of SS and Welfare than if we got rid of Star Wars and a bunch of other weapons systems designed to protect us from the people who aren't attacking us.
Logical fallacy. You're comparing a program of dubious consequence to a program, our presence in Iraq, that's pretty obviously, at least according to our military and most national security experts, preventing a reconstituting of terrorist forces.

Quote:
Also, military personnel get paid shit. Most of that money is going to contractors with no bid and cost plus contracts. We have as many contractors in Iraq as we do troops and the contractors make far more money than our troops. Yay privatization, is there nothing you can't efficientize for us?
The U.S. spends about 18 billion a year in personnel costs. The money that contractors make goes back home to their families, and their families spend that money. It all gets repatriated regardless of whether its a direct transfer to troops or a contract.

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lol, is that what the definition of national security is now? Money well spent then...
Protecting our national security doesn't include preventing terrorists from reconstituting operational capability to destroy U.S. interests?


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No, corporate handouts like the tens of billions of dollars we funnel to all those companies who are "too big to fail". You know, those companies which are all about rugged individualism and low taxes when the money is rolling in but which aren't above soaking up taxpayer dollars to keep the party going when times aren't so good. Socialism for you is bad, socialism for them is good. Good old American social-fascism. Where feeding the poor and making sure old people aren't starving to death in the streets are supposedly bad investments but bailing out multibillion dollar corporations is perfectly acceptable.
Yeah, not a big fan of bailouts, but they've absolutely minuscule in regard to the broader economy, you've completely sidestepped the point of Iraq was spending here.
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Old 07-23-2008, 04:14 PM gwvg is offline  
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How about when the money that funded the war didn't come from our taxes? We borrowed all that money from China and Japan.
What about it? What's your point? Could the U.S. probably have done without the expenditure? Sure, but its a completely moot point when Obama isn't going to do anything for deficit reduction, and the money saved even if it was used for deficit reduction, would be rather insignificant in relation to the overall problem.
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Old 07-23-2008, 04:16 PM gwvg is offline  
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Meh. I'm not sure I buy this argument. Too much to fight over in Iraq once we leave to worry about hitting us.

Did you miss what happened in the absence of U.S. troops and Iraqi military? Al qaeda ruled with an iron fist, built up operational capability, and nearly killed so many Americans as to force us to surrender. I never really understood how anyone can rationalize that an enemy that has vowed to strike us beyond its borders was "just kidding," and they'd leave us alone when they've accumulated the capability to do so.
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Old 07-23-2008, 04:23 PM gwvg is offline  
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coolxboxgamer
 
for all of you that think we can afford:

1. a war (obama wants to move to afghanistan, both of them won't change a thing)
2. Social security (currently completely unpayable, and wants the majority of baby boomers retire the system will be flat broke)
3. Medicare/Medicage/Medical coverage (obama's plan will not work unless we drastically increase taxes)
4. Our GIGANNNNNTICCCCCCCCCCC DEBT- It is physically impossible to get out of debt because the federal reserve loans us money at interest, thus it is impossible....


One single slip in the system and we could see MASSIVE inflation. China and Japan are holding trillions of our dollars, and once someone starts selling, EVERYONE will start selling due to the fact you don't want to be the last one holding the worthless money. That will cause a collapse of the stock market and instant price hikes for every single consumer good. We will then face years of hardship and possibly a completele economic catastrophe.

P.S. All of those government figures that show inflation is "low" and our gdp is good is completely farce, we are barrowing on time, we are putting off the inevitable, and we will inevitably fall, and fall hard.

P.S. #2, the reason we went to Iraq was to defend our dollar. Sadam wanted to price oil in Euros and our government saw this could cause a tital wave of monetary policy from the US dollar to the Euro. Our dollar is completely flawed. The federal reserve stopped reporting dollar amounts a few years ago in fear of the information being leaked and seeing how MASSIVE we have a problem. Inflation will be GIGANTIC in the near future, that is a guarantee.

O YA, and everyone that is sucked up in the "money" side of things... what about the 4000+ soldiers that have died in Iraq? those lives don't have a dollar value...
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Old 07-23-2008, 04:42 PM coolxboxgamer is offline  
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Originally Posted by gwvg View Post
No, my point is that the short term economic effect of war spending is no worse than any other stimulative spending measures. The difference is that no social objective is accomplished, and the long term effects are more negative than spending that has infrastructure benefits. The spending is no more economically inefficient than transfers to welfare beneficiaries who fail to improve their income level, incentives to develop green technology that never comes to fruition, or any other spending initiative that fails to accomplish any infrastructure effect. The idea that we're removing 200 billion per year from the economy is just completely wrong.

No, this is wrong. Here, I've put the incorrect assumption in bold for all party's benefit.

I hold by my Iraq War = Monkeys Shitting on my Face for a Million Dollars metaphor. I also hold that people had to die to make that one work.

War spending in Iraq is exorbitant, grossly inefficient, and is in my understanding producing little to no benefit. Again, even though some of those dollars do return to Americans, they do so in part by non-competitive no-bid contracts that devalue the work done and pillage the need to shunt that money into more productive investments.

The idea that just because money is spent, no matter the actual value of the labor/good produced for the amount paid, means the economy is benefiting, is so shit-faced wrong that I don't know what to say.

So welfare programs can be improved. So some green technology produces more jobs and viable technologies than others. Competition and efficiency studies help. So some infrastructure projects produce more capital than others for the dollar. It's all better than being shat on and killing people.



You didn't really come close to presenting a viable argument. You still think it's OK for monkeys to shit on me for a million dollars of taxpayer purse. Well, TTYL
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Old 07-23-2008, 04:54 PM jkrowling is offline  
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coolxboxgamer
 
agreed with poster above

there are much more efficient ways to do something with that money rather than bombing another country for fucks sake

its not just cost in $$$, its cost in lives, our world image, etc.

fucking terrible argument
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Old 07-23-2008, 04:56 PM coolxboxgamer is offline  
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Straw Man
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Of course it works like that. Nothing really costs anything
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Old 07-23-2008, 05:11 PM Straw Man is offline  
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pyramid
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwvg View Post
Thank you for acting as the perfect example of the economic ignorance I'm talking about in the first place. The money spent on Iraq goes to defense contractors and military personnel, in turn they pay their employees and their employees buy consumer goods.
And how much of the nation do you believe is employed in defense contract work? A significant portion or a tiny portion?

Quote:
It works the same way that any government spending program works.
No, not quite. Defense contracts are notoriously more expensive and contain far more no bid and cost plus contracting.

Quote:
The exact same argument you just made, that most Americans wouldn't see the money, is justification for eliminating welfare, health care spending, and virtually every government spending program that targets one group over another. Pretty pathetic argument if you ask me.
Are you retarded? There are far more poor people who will require some sort of assistance and people who will require health care than there are defense contractors. There are ~50 million people without insurance right now. There are ~37 million Americans living at or below the poverty line. There is likely some crossover between the two numbers but any way you slice it they dwarf the number of Americans employed in the defense industry even if your threw in the entire armed forces.

We could have done far more with that money for America and Americans though actual social programs and investing in our nation in areas other than the military industrial complex. We could have put more Americans to work doing things which could actually benefit the nation as a whole far more than starting unnecessary wars for the benefit of the defense industry.

If we had put that money into energy independence then we might be 5 years into the next technological revolution and revitalization of our nation instead of 5 years on into one of the worst mistakes our nation has ever made. If we had put that money into building a national health care system like most of the rest of the modern world enjoys we could have put ourselves on track to eventually saving America and Americans a TRILLION dollars a year or more while providing health care to all our citizens. Do you see how it's not all the same where we spend the money? Paying people to build military equipment like humvees which we are likely going to expend, abandon or destroy in a foreign desert somewhere just doesn't have the same lasting benefit that spending that money on something else could have had.

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Ahhh, more economic stupidity here. Our children won't be asked to pay back any loans; that's a complete misunderstanding.
Right, because every good economist knows that no one ever pays back trillion dollar loans, they just pay the interest on them in perpetuity... Maybe that's why we already spend ~350 Billion + a year just paying the interest on our national debt. You know, the ones our children and childrens children will never be able to pay off at the rate we are going, only you said it differently...

Quote:
Our children will be asked to pay off the interest on a vastly devalued debt due to yearly inflation.
So our economic plan is to buy a couple euros, devalue the dollar to a complete and utter joke of a currency, sell our two euros for a quadrillion dollars and then we can pay off all our debt? I don't think that will work for some reason.

Quote:
Regardless of that economic misunderstanding, when you consider the actual debt effect, you'd realize how completely stupid that argument really is in regard to a pull out. Obama isn't going to use the 100 billion saved starting 2 years from now for deficit reduction; he's just going to spend it; the same exact current effect on the economy that the spending on Iraq is causing now.
Yes, he likely will spend it. However I've already shown that your ridiculous argument about all spending being equal is really stupid and untrue. So if he invests that money in fixing our roads and bridges or some other silly program to enrich and empower America and Americans the positive effect will likely be far greater than dumping another 100 billion into the black hole known as Iraq.

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Basically, its a logical fallacy.
Yes, your argument is.

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No, going into Iraq in the first place was a bad idea. Leaving now has nothing to do with WMDs, but instead the operational capability of terrorist organizations.
Which is pretty much non-existent in Iraq and resurgent in Afghanistan and Pakistan because we chose to waste time and money making a secular dictatorship into a religious civil war. The people in Iraq just want us to go home. The people who attacked us and still want to attack us are doing just fine and staying in Iraq is not putting a damper on their plans. If anything we are helping drive their recruiting by staying in Iraq.

Quote:
Logical fallacy. You're comparing a program of dubious consequence to a program, our presence in Iraq, that's pretty obviously, at least according to our military and most national security experts, preventing a reconstituting of terrorist forces.
Our presence in Iraq is what made it a terrorist training ground. Don't talk to me of logical fallacies. You are the one spouting off about how spending a couple trillion dollars on something which was wholly unnecessary is just as good an investment as spending that same couple trillion on things which actually are necessary.

Quote:
The U.S. spends about 18 billion a year in personnel costs. The money that contractors make goes back home to their families, and their families spend that money. It all gets repatriated regardless of whether its a direct transfer to troops or a contract.
Yeah, but we could have military personnel doing the vast majority of the jobs we have private contractors doing and they would do it better and for a fraction of the cost. It is still not money well spent.

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Protecting our national security doesn't include preventing terrorists from reconstituting operational capability to destroy U.S. interests?
See: Afghanistan.

Quote:
Al qaeda ruled with an iron fist, built up operational capability, and nearly killed so many Americans as to force us to surrender.
Except that never happened in Iraq. That's what's been happening in Afghanistan while we've been fucking around in Iraq. And in Iraq Al Qaeda eventually lost favor and got kicked out by the natives because the natives were tired of all the civilian deaths.
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Old 07-23-2008, 06:16 PM pyramid is offline  
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BigFuzzyArchon
 
 
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Originally Posted by gwvg View Post
What about it? What's your point? Could the U.S. probably have done without the expenditure? Sure, but its a completely moot point when Obama isn't going to do anything for deficit reduction, and the money saved even if it was used for deficit reduction, would be rather insignificant in relation to the overall problem.

You are claiming we are gonna see the money again when it never really existed in the first place which really means that they are going to print more up and cause our current dollars to be worth even less.
Old 07-23-2008, 06:35 PM BigFuzzyArchon is offline  
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#26  

coolxboxgamer
 
Our dollar is a fucking shit currency atm..... its a cat and mouse game between the reserve nations (see: Russia, Japan, China, Middle East, Etc.) The minute someone slips up and dumps the countries reserves (even a small middle east country) would spark a huge sell off where every country would sell their currency, instantly devaluing the dollar to be worth shit. We would have massive inflation (see: bread $50) and we would immediately print more money to hyperinflate ourselves out of the mess, further compounding the problem. We seriously are a retarted country .

In 40 years at the current rate of debt we will have $40+ trillion dollars of debt, and we will only be able to pay interest on our debt. We will have no money for anything, no roads, no schools, no highways, our American way of life will be gone.

We are playing a VERY and I repeat VERY dangerous cat and mouse game.

Here's a good video explaining it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RhnHo3RDfg

This will play out before you know it.... pyramid i have a feeling you understand this, and I thank you for your comments.....

This is going to get worse than you people can even imagine
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Old 07-23-2008, 07:15 PM coolxboxgamer is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolxboxgamer View Post
Our dollar is a fucking shit currency atm..... its a cat and mouse game between the reserve nations (see: Russia, Japan, China, Middle East, Etc.) The minute someone slips up and dumps the countries reserves (even a small middle east country) would spark a huge sell off where every country would sell their currency, instantly devaluing the dollar to be worth shit. We would have massive inflation (see: bread $50) and we would immediately print more money to hyperinflate ourselves out of the mess, further compounding the problem. We seriously are a retarted country .

In 40 years at the current rate of debt we will have $40+ trillion dollars of debt, and we will only be able to pay interest on our debt. We will have no money for anything, no roads, no schools, no highways, our American way of life will be gone.

We are playing a VERY and I repeat VERY dangerous cat and mouse game.

Here's a good video explaining it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RhnHo3RDfg

This will play out before you know it.... pyramid i have a feeling you understand this, and I thank you for your comments.....

This is going to get worse than you people can even imagine

STOP FUCKING POSTING
Old 07-23-2008, 07:21 PM bingstudent is offline  
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#28  

coolxboxgamer
 
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STOP FUCKING POSTING

get a clue

look all this shit up, its all fact

http://www.resourceinvestor.com/pebble.asp?relid=39907

you cant deny this crap

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-mQAPgNj64

I could link you articles and videos and books and publishings ALLLLLLLLLLLLLL day long


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xq7KH5TjWPw&NR=1

....

....respond to that
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Old 07-23-2008, 07:24 PM coolxboxgamer is offline  
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coolxboxgamer
 
also: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_sYZ...eature=related

you cannot fight this... this is the TRUTH
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